Listening as a Framework – group conversation
Listening as a Framework
– group conversation
Wednesday the 24th of January
The vault at Art Hub Copenhagen
1 hour and 24 minutes.
Present: Jenny Gräf Sheppard, Brandon Labelle, Randi Lindholm Hansen, Lukas Quist Lund.
Unedited AI generated transcription.
Alright, it’s just going to do this then. Yes, I would say that one. Yeah, but maybe I can say a few little things more about how we’ve beautiful listening also thought about this. Listening as a framework, because we needed to start somewhere, really. And we had ideas of different listening practices, something with the spatial listening or the listening with the body. But there was like this idea of how do we go there? How do we arrive at these more concrete practices that is more focused and more Perhaps happening in the real world and this in the thinking but but where do we then start in order to arrive at there? So we thought of this whole first week as like a place where you can like like set off get things out of the system in terms of words and ideas and concepts in order to have like this part of things that we can work with later. Also because the next week is kind of slow listening so there’s time to really just stay with the things in a different way. That’s good to know so this week is one week and then you have a following week that’s a different oh in in a month, and how many weeks then these? Four weeks over four months. Okay, and they each have different themes? Yes. And do you already have the different themes? Yes, so the themes are now listening as a framework, and then slow listening, and then listening with the body, and then spatial listening. Ah, okay, okay, these are the different ones. Yeah, but they were mostly like titles also made up. early on to give it a structure and to communicate with art hub. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s helpful. And I think the hope is that from now and then four months later, then different practices will be more clear. But there’s no need for clarity now. There’s like this freedom in some way. The pros, of course. course, with opening up, I don’t know, anxiety or whatever, but yeah, we’re trying to like create somewhere to start. I also consider or think of these headlines or themes or concepts as just an excuse to start a conversation or to open a dialogue out. then we have a starting point somehow and then each week will Yeah, we will open it up and explore and take it wherever it want to go, but it’s not a Set structure as you say Yeah Yeah, it’s great to set it up as a generative Situation yeah, I can appreciate that and maybe like to be really honest, like with you here in the beginning, I think the burden of meaningful production is at the lesses point, because like in terms of like regenerating things, we would just be like spreading seeds and then other people have like responsibility too. Lovely, I like the seeding. Yeah, but then how do you feel with, think of, even understand perhaps this idea of this thing as a framework. You mentioned this thing as what sets the conditions, but I don’t know. I don’t know, I was just like thinking before I came here about what I think of listening. I hadn’t thought about the framework part, maybe you’d already explained that to me before, but I have a little bit of a hard time trying to grasp framework for myself, because I guess I think of like, maybe I’m just too literal in my mind, I’m thinking of like a frame, or I’m thinking of boundaries, and I’m so, you know, um, like, but, but when I think of it as something to, like, let’s say approach a problem or approach a situation, um, I think of, yeah, I think of like listening is actually something that’s very codependent. I don’t know if this is what you’re getting at, but that’s actually. actually codependent on what you are listening to or who you’re listening to, because, you know, I’m of the Paulina Loveris camp about like, you know, are you sending what you’re receiving kind of thing, you know, like, you know, for example, I was just thinking about, I usually turn to my own personal experiences when I’m trying to kind of think of ideas, but just my mother was a very Very good listener my father wasn’t so I would I I would feel that I couldn’t Express myself with my father, but I could express myself very much with my mother and In different situations in my life those two different polarities would affect the way I would sound and I could see people wouldn’t listen to me in the situations when I spoke as if I wasn’t being heard, you know. So, I mean, and it’s also the other way around. I think, you know, there are ways of listening that are, you know, sending certain messages. And the dynamic, especially when we’re dealing with sight, you know, I was just watching this chimp documentary last night. night, and I was like their expressions You they’d had need no language, you know, like their expressions are so human But I was like I know exactly like the sorrow or the excitement or the curiosity By just looking and so, you know, I I I think about listening is very multi sensory, you know Like how how are we listening? You know even just touching your you know your friend’s hand or, you know, receiving a touch, those things are also a form of sending and listening at the same time. So, I guess that’s just how I think about listening, and when I come to a framework, I guess it’s hard for me to just separate the listening from the sounding. sounding. I don’t know. That’s just what I’m thinking of when I’m starting off. That also makes me think very much about the the situativeness of listening and sounding. So it makes me think in a way that we could say that there is sort of always already a framework in place and maybe it’s also about becoming a place so bringing sensitivity and reflection to that situativeness and how that impacts onto listening. Another thing that came to mind is like like, maybe more on a theoretical, love -versive process. It made me remember a lovely presentation I experienced by Silvair Lodringer. He was the editor of the semiotext. I was a student. He came to Cal Arts and gave a talk. about theory in the arts, like French theory was really coming in to the art field, and Silver was of course a representative of this move, bringing the French continent of philosophy into the United States through translation. And so someone asked him like, “Well, what is theory?” and he said he said well you know when you go to like Starbucks Starbucks was like a new thing and he said you get these little coffee what do you call sleeves yeah put over the hot cup yeah to hold the cup and he said theory is like one of these sleeves that allows you to hold what is hot to kind of hold it and give it a frame so we can kind of understand it or explore it or dwell upon it and so I also wondered a little bit about frameworks theoretically that we create frameworks like theoretical models in order to hold things. physical thing, but discursive tools. The thing is, funny how this sleeves responds so well to the actual frame. The frame is also something that you put on the paintings in order to actually hold it. It’s like very concrete thing that holds an idea. That is very, like the framework is the holder of ideas in a way that they’re painting or they’re, yeah. That’s a really nice image. – It’s also nice to think about like, or nice, I don’t know what I’m just saying, but it’s not, it’s also nice. I think about just which one comes next. first, you know, sometimes the theory then engenders the contents. And sometimes the contents seem like they create, you know, the capacity for the theory. And yeah, I guess it’s also just the same with or similar with the situatedness or cultural context of how we come to our listening position and that certain belief systems will create the capacity for listening across the senses, let’s say, or listening through touch or smell when listening is just one waste, one waste tree rather than two waste trees. Yeah, I’m just thinking about like linearity What what causes what? But I like the idea of the These Cup holders or whatever you want to call them the sleeves And or even just as a like a funny thing for people to do on Friday, just everyone has like a sleep. They’re all different sizes. Yeah, they can use them in this way or this way. Or they have to find something that contains it or it fits into it. What are you saying with what comes first or how they generate other theories or the situation? situation, but I think that with the sleeves or the cup holder to stay in that metaphor, I think Saabak didn’t invent the cup holder. They were like inspired by all the other tools that we have to hold on to what is hard and difficult. And just as they perhaps perfected the cup holder, I think people also, or the cup holder itself could also be very used for other things. So I think my interest in the framework is also how it allows us to engage within things, but also constantly points from somewhere towards another one. The framework is not the idea itself, it’s not why we’re doing it, it’s from somewhere always on the move to something else, always transforming, shifting, adapting. At least that’s also a question. Do you know if they were? experienced a framework myself that holds or stands stills. I’ve only experienced something that’s kind of alive or moving or sort of pointing to somewhere else. They don’t want me to just stop there with a cup holder or the empty frame. They’re always just trying to generate more or generate back. But is that something that makes sense for you as well? Yeah. I was recently in like a conversation with also like a working group was the question of the institution. Like particularly thinking about the art institution for the 21st century was a kind of question. And so I’m going to end this here. about what is an institution, right? And one of the things that I sort of was thinking around was the idea that the institution is a framework, right? That also really tries to work at maintaining something. So even though, though maybe we have this idea of the framework as being flexible or always inciting movement, there’s also something about the stability of it and even the kind of stasis. We are here, this is sort of like continuity about the institution as a framework. It sort of holds something. something community or content or even like enduring for this reference point you always go back to I always sort of like this feeling that the institution is steady and like and this is also that moment in which it can feel that it’s impersonal, right? There’s always that moment. – Yeah. – The institutional crisis, which is like, they feel impersonal, like you feel alienated from the institution. And I think that’s sort of built into its dynamic. It inevitably hits these moments because it tries to endure, it tries to maintain, and it tries to like, be fixed. And it always has to kind of re -institute itself, right? In order to stay viable, in order to stay attuned to its community. So I wondered a little bit about, yeah, just this topic about movement and also the importance of like staying fixed. – Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it stays fixed because it’s constantly being tested. I’m just thinking about democracy, like, you know, how, you know, in the U .S. at least, it’s this idea of, like, oh, it used to be, that democracy is how it always has to be sort of fought for and tested and negotiated. and and how like there’s some institutions that I would say that don’t want that to be they don’t want that kind of like even with like the free speech or like what they they’d rather shut it up so that they can maintain their fixed status even though we all know it it’s you know there’s a negotiation being going on but yeah I just find that like this tension between the fixness and what what’s sort of challenging that fixity or sometimes it can actually like the challenges can actually keep that steadiness or continuity whereas you know a lot of times a lot of institutions are afraid of that you know so yeah and I think of course there’s a great complexity between that but it’s is fixed and that that is moving and how they’re like supporting each other, enabling each other, but also challenging each other. I want to recognize that is, of course, complex, but I’m also curious about how from human perspective, like, in what way are we able to even comprehend that this fixed doesn’t our existence rely on a great degree of change and of course I’m also speaking as a human so I don’t know if there’s an unchangeable dimension but I’m just curious because quite often we have concept institutions ways of life that we consider as fixed or natural or way things should be but often they are not true like they’re made up is something that we think of being fixed, but they’re only 20 years old and we can easily change them if you want or maybe they’re 200 years old, but that’s still nothing compared to the larger span of time that we exist in. But I’m just curious about this, like in what ways the need for like fixation, a human need, I don’t know, like perhaps other entities have like more truth. truth about being fixed because they have a different span and time and space but I can only wonder but I’m just curious about how when you think of framework how that is like perhaps a human capacity to do and this perhaps some something in that something that we work with because beyond I was just making me think about how we can’t notice so many changes, we can’t even be perceptive because we can’t notice slow change with optical illusions. Oftentimes it’s very difficult to see something changing really, really slowly over time. time something might change from blue to red and we might like not even notice because and yeah also just the cultural sense of what is longevity and what is old coming from the very young United States Western United States I was just thinking about, could listening be a form of finding those frameworks, like listening to one’s own situatedness or listening to the acoustics of a space that give you a sense of. the framework, I like anything about the academy, you know, listening to the echoes in the academy is a way of understanding the power structure built into the actual building itself. how listening as well also put focus on the conditions and also set the conditions how they’re like incident with as both listening being a condition and a way to set them and shape them but also a way to discover all the conditions that we are always already in other ways shaped by already before we start having this listening ability to set new conditions well it’s like this listening is a speculative act or being tied to, you know, if you’re listening for something, let’s say, with Pauline Olivero’s as speculative kinds of scores, can you listen to the sound of all your footsteps you took in your whole life? I mean, if you start to speculate and tune that sense of speculative listening, could you then shape your framework for it? listening? But I like what you just said about this kind of, yeah, listening to shape something, but listening to also discover something. I like that kind of seeming contrast, but it’s quite true. Yeah, I don’t even think about it as a contrast. I think it is something that fits on each other, like different moments with within like larger moments but yeah but I’m really curious about this whole conditioning aspect of like the framework and of the listening and how they have some things in common because that’s also part of what we’re doing now with the testing ground trying to discover what are the conditions what conditions can be might set and how listening is perhaps conditioned in a certain way due to the testing ground and are there also certain listening practices that is perhaps, if not only, but then empathize doing this testing ground. I guess there are certain things that make sense to point out here rather than other places. Yeah. It makes me think a little bit about this process. process that you’re describing as a performativity. So if we think about formativity as often now, which is sort of carrying forward an existing, for instance, vocabulary, language, power structure. So we’re sort of performing those things. We’re At the same time, in that instance of performatively, we’re also taking it into ourselves and moving it somewhere else or influencing or shifting the orientation of an existing framework. So that situatedness, I think, is this performativity that you’re describing and how listening participates. which I think is, yeah, really quite insightful and key. Yeah, sort of an iterative thing. Like, it kind of goes back and back, but changes every time. I also think for me there’s a lot of empowering and thinking with that, like the performativity of thinking and talking about it. because I had a class in art history about pushing back on structures, and it was in this very, not widened as such, but it was very active based, like we have to do all these acts in order to situate us differently, but perhaps there’s also the other motors, the other way around where we can listen back, and that listening itself is changing and generating. the conditions that we are finding out ourselves in which I’d subscribe to us perhaps more. Or maybe there’s just room for it all like you know I mean there’s so many ways of being activist or pushed or pushing back listening is you know. I was speaking in the context of sitting there in the class and what I was taught was the pushing and not the listening back. So yeah, maybe there’s another class that teaches me how to do that, but it didn’t find me. I guess you’re creating your own class. Yeah, you are. True, yeah. Maybe just going back to your descriptions earlier about this stasis and movement that you’re describing. And it makes me think a little bit about talking about frameworks to maybe appreciate how there’s frameworks within Framework. There’s like nested frameworks. So when we think about that idea of like different time scales, right, so there’s a stasis on the level of one time scale. So these frameworks and frameworks can maybe help us appreciate how them work. and stasis are always part of the same thing. I think maybe, yeah, if we think about the experience as one that sort of is a dynamic one between these two. So I think we need stasis on some level and we need movement. Yeah, this dynamic the dynamic because I was also thinking about like yeah relationships Families and friendships, you know, like the continuity of those things. I think it’s something that is personally Rely upon thriving in change and feeling like one is constantly growing and dying at the same time. So, somehow, yeah, maybe this dichotomy is less oppositional. And at least not dualistic, it’s not all the way, or either, but yeah. And it’s funny because to connect that to the beautiful listening, I think we imagine the beautiful listening as a framework, as a concept, or as a bureau, as an inverter, that could offer us, like, like, I should say, some fixation, some comfort, something to stay within. Like, we imagine an institution where things could happen. We imagine something to continue in order for change appearing. So, I think it just responds quite well to our original thinking and our wishes for the whole beautiful listening project. not that we have voiced it as a framework in this sense, but definitely responds well to it. Yeah, and just by naming our project, we’ve gone on subconsciously or consciously given it some sort of framework, possibly. And by, in this name, the Bureau kind of, there’s a suggestion of space and a physical framework. And we don’t have that. So it’s kind of a grasping for maybe something to hold us or framework to work within. And I just picked up on something I thought was very powerful like this whole, and I think it’s very powerful. the naming, the formative act of naming something is always already also frameworking something, like putting a name on it rather than not doing it. It gives it a frame to act with, like, a game store. But just this, like, all the many things that are happening when something is being named, named, the voicing, but also the framing, and all the other things you choose not to say because you said that. What is beautiful is now, not because of what we named it. All these things that we can not know, but are nonetheless within. But just a lot of things happen when just the naming parts come to a place. It’s going to be very frightening. frightening. I find that in my PhD I’m like you know oh no I don’t know what I have to go this way or that way. I don’t want to choose. But I was thinking also about the what you I walked in on you talking about of Bureau 4 versus Bureau of and how like something as small as that is also a way of framing or or orienting you know a lot of the grammar we use or abuse or misuse or change those are things that can help thinking about how what we mean by this name. I think this is like the experience we have when we are communicating this and using new partnerships like like 95 % of all people, they hear off, like we say for, but they just hear off. And then the right back to us, they write off. Not because they mean anything evil or whatever, but just how we are already so schooled to do that. Even for us in the beginning, we really had to remind ourselves of what we’re doing this for. Definitely. Yeah and that was the discussion we had and the long kind of week we also gave ourselves time to to have this conversation about fall versus off and we were very early on fairly sure about bureau and about listening and then the bridge between the two concepts. We really allowed that time to to form and to not take anything for granted. granted. I for one feel like we went down the right path. That was very much the two kind of you could go to it could it could take us two two ways. I think if we were called Bureau of Listening we would much sooner have found a place, a sign, an actual desk. wouldn’t open hours. And of course we are missing that, but in the same way also, it’s interesting how the four also invites so many other ways of inhabiting practices. I think the space would have been very different if we had been off listening. An hour instead now we’re finding the desk and the opening hours in a more performative way. but we are kind of longing for it and grasping for it, but we are also constantly questioning it in a very useful way, I think, for this project. – It may be kind of breezy back to that feeling of the generative and the institution, and in a way, speculation, so like that gesture of naming. I think it also carries a certain relationship to those things in terms of do you see that name as like a platform through which things are generative and a mode of speculative engagement so listening becomes endlessly redefined right if it’s of listening somehow that a sense of like, not singularity but a certain kind of certainty that you already know what listening is, I think you mentioned this before. So I think that also carries the sense about what the name can do, a certain attitude about naming. So even when you say like, “I have to go that way or this way,” way, oh no like so yeah I don’t know like hanging on to that sense of speculative, investigative, not yetness of things, I think immediately is also attached to a certain artistic sensibility of like yeah. Yeah and also certain types of practices that can be open, left open because like for example, my practice, I’m constantly sort of staying with things, and, or, but also going back to them in an iterative way. So like, I think I tend towards that, sometimes indecisiveness, not just out of fear or laziness, but also just as a choice, you know, because, yeah. just, I don’t know, I’ll put a mirror in there. Yeah, I’ll say because! Also, in the degree that the naming, like, before the naming, there was, perhaps, a “nondame”, like, like, some intangible elements, but then you have the naming, but then there’s also, like, the “undaming” practices that can follow. Like, I’m here thinking about, I think it was, was it a “the queen who wrote…” wrote “See Unnamed Them” or I cannot remember the English title. But a little short essay about how taking away the names of things can both be like a punishment in history that certain names you’re not about to have. We can also be this artistic and actualistic way of like opening up spaces and leaving them. this openness and re -introducing the not -yet -ness where we thought it was maybe lost or without reason, but like a way to like never thinking of the naming as something static, but as you say regenerative, but also that not only the naming, but also the non -naming and the un -naming, re -naming. Yeah, and also the the way that we, our languages are focused on nouns, you know, we are compared just like, let’s say, certain American or Aboriginal, Australian languages that are like, you know, instead of saying that’s a river, I think there’s something about saying, you know, this is river, or there’s a river, a river ring, a river, you know, so there’s this improcessness. So it’s, there’s both the not yet, there’s the fixed, and then there’s the improcessness. I don’t know. You know, there’s this, I just find it really fascinating to look at how different languages try to approach some of these things and how naming is, you know, we’re focused on naming or like holding things a lot with nouns and how verbs can kind of create a different way of maybe thinking about this. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, there’s a practice of making the frameworks more specific. verbing Yeah, because I think I completely recognize that need to working with the nouns and the more Concept space that like it comes with that’s like I can just take it and place it and point to it in some way rather than have this processal way of like going in and out and also with others. Personally, it’s a very personal, but I often feel that this expectation to have this fixed framework for other people to feel welcomed into it. It’s like this culture or this way of just being in society where we feel a bit on the edge, at least in my experience, when people are like, like already in the movement, already in the process, and wants me to come in. But that’s the best thing. The best thing is to show up at the party when it’s at the peak, rather than coming at the beginning where you’re invited. But somebody has to come in the beginning in order for there to be a party. So, yeah, it’s complex too. So, are you always fashion really late? late? No, I’m always on time because I’ve really been schooled to do that. I hate myself when I’m late. Sometimes it happens. I feel so guilty. But I never judge others because I don’t feel this right. It’s just like an internal thing. Which is strange. I was wondering a little bit as a question maybe. This attraction to, you know, the speculativeness, or hanging onto the sense of the not yet is always participating in what we’re doing or in the languages we are using. Do you think that that attraction or that… appreciation for those things, is there a connection to to sounding and listening? Like is there, you know, are we kind of, yeah, engaging with those processes and finding a certain answer or means in sound and listening as well to kind of help cultivate that that sense of prostheness? seeding. Endlessly seeding. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, to me, it does because… Yeah, because, well, I don’t know if this is too… …literal, but… …a response, but… …that sound is so… …um… …yeah, subjective. you know, I might listen to something at one moment and feel one way and another moment another So it’s conditional and like and also that’s the time baseness of it and how you can evolve through it And you can reflect upon it and how that change, you know, there’s not an object always to really cling to That you know helps to create a fix or some kind of certainty um, I don’t know what you’re kind of, like what you mean about, yeah, um, sort of, yeah, thinking around that, and then also thinking how that, um, is suggestive for also a certain relationship to knowledge. Exactly, yeah. Um, I think that is, yeah, not because I want you to find listening, but for me a part of it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. the listening experience and why it differs from hearing is that not yetness like there’s this Refusal of actually knowing what I’m experiencing. I do have assumptions and I’m In a more open Open, speculative mind where where I’m curious about what is this? It could be something very different from what I’m now thinking it is. But in a minute it’s the opposite where I know that is the sound of the police car. Then I’m just hearing the police car, not really listening to it. It doesn’t have to be that definition, but I think there’s an element of this not -yet -ness for me in order for something to be off -listening. Yeah, and it’s something that also fights the whole way of the mind works Like we have the filtering our mind wants to recognize certain things otherwise the input is too large but there’s this for me at least like nurturing supporting that not yetness how can we Encourage that grow it into other practices. How can we not? not be too lazy with that or I recognize the police car or other things but as you say with knowledge, how can that aspect of listening for me Inspire different kind of knowing because it’s also like a non -knowing is like knowing through the letting go of knowledge and what will then appear and emerge Because it’s still there. It’s like all this information is still there. It’s just the filter and the processing of it That doesn’t come first with the noticeable first with them Yeah, I know I think it’s real that’s a really important point also this kind of I think Salome Booglin wrote about this but the doubt You know like bringing in like doubt to the sensibility of listening or Yeah, how that and I guess curiosity as well and when you’re talking about the police car I’m also thinking about how it like the Doppler effect works like there’s a Disorientation in a way that happens because you’re hearing something that’s like Or you know whatever that like the way that it changes in the pitch because of the space and how that that that you’re listening to change as and trying to negotiate it because there’s something confusing about it and the way I guess it’s also a cognitive thing or you know like something that happens within the brain but like listening to that change and that confusion temporally of the pitch also also is a type of doubt that leads you to kind of understand where it is in space, you know, like just how the two ears are hearing like two different sounds. And maybe there’s a disorientation there too that I’m just expanding on your uncertainty and doubt, I guess. Very nice, yes. I also, yeah, love this thinking around doubt. this sense also if we go back to that notion of like seeing is believing listening is doubting yeah kind of I think it connects us then to this speculative not yetness and always being a little bit yeah curious about what exactly is taking place you know, to be unsure, to be curious. I think this is also why, yeah, listening seems to ground us in this kind of empathic sense about curiosity, about being too, too, too others, yeah, and discovering in the moment, like, what is there. So there’s not knowing the sense of, um, yeah. authentic is really like really circulating through that experience of listening. So, so dynamically and so presently. Yeah, like the dynamics of, sorry, the dynamics of listening itself is like, you know, a changing thing, you know, like it’s not just one thing. It’s occurring in different ways and a lot of confusion and a lot of certainty and then a lot of. of in -betweens and sorry. No, but I think it’s the same thing. I just wanted to add when we then say listening as a framework, that’s also a way to make it more dynamic because if you have this framework, but what you have as a frame is this doubting and this unknowing, this unsureness, then that also makes the framework this static and more… dynamic or for multiple ways of doing things. And maybe that’s nice. It’s like a framework for the framework. But yeah, I think those characteristics of listening is good to like into the framework with. Because personally, I was, I guess, quite quickly with the framework as a static way. like oh now it’s just like this thing But that’s never really the truth. The truth is always this more Unsure doubting dynamic framework because of the listing Well back to the nesting thing. It’s funny because in my my phj started to write about nesting as well because I’ve started to get confused about You know which which comes first, you know, which framework or I wasn’t using the word framework But, you know, it’s sounding first and then disarray disorientation second I’m sort of so I started to think about these like nesting dolls I wrote about the nesting dolls um and I think that speaks to the point of you know what you were just saying it’s like there are these different um frameworks all in play all negotiating with each other at the same time yeah always starting because I think when does what start that’s something that is always starting like this only only starting, in terms of like dosing up, time, fixation. But it’s just like nesting, it’s not like– – Interesting, right. – Is there even a starting or beginning? – Yeah. – There’s always only the starting of the nesting. – Interesting. – And the minute you lose the nesting of it or the listing of it or whatever, then there’s also something different. – Mm -hmm. – But I’m not sure. It’s not really, like, they’re not the beginning either, like, that’s often what you write in the end. But also later on, for each chapter, each sentence, there’s always a new starting for the reader, as well as for the writer, I guess. Yeah, it makes me think in that way. We could appreciate how listening, like, keeps us in the middle. It’s like, you know, that sense of presentness. And maybe also always… always opening up to this sense of discovery. That sense of doubting is also about remaining open and discovering along the way in this middleness, what is always already there, who are we in this moment, all those things that listening enables. Also makes me think that listening is also there in this moment. of supporting questions. If we don’t, then we also question. So even now in our conversation listening, as like setting those conditions for questions, for questioning and inquiry, rather than always already knowing from the beginning and just stating what we know this is more about. yeah like exploring discovering together and I like also the difference between the middle and the starting and perhaps also to expand on that because in some way we are always in the middle of something but who are we to like just the process I think that’s why I said starting that as a framework like with the the downing, it changes everything from like before. So it’s like a personal experience. I’m just, I think I’m conceptualizing or framing it as there’s always this starting off because I lose my ability to judge the process. The only sort of like holding I have is finding myself in new startings. So it’s, but of course, course you’re always in the middle, but I’m just always doubting on like the overview, like I never know where in the process I am, so I think I’m just allowing myself to be in the starting process, because I cannot really analyze my always in the middle, it’s ending or I have to ask God, he’s the only one who knows, but yeah, but I like them. Yeah I already always trust your old condition. Lucas, at some point in our conversation a while back, I think you alluded to also thinking about the situation here. Yeah. I just wanted to, like, pick that up. And did you have any thoughts about that? did you mean actually this place or the city or were you wanting to direct this towards thinking about contacts or? Yeah, I think it’s a good question in terms of what did I even mean with the situatingness of here, is that the testing ground, is it the fourth bus, is it the room, is it Art Hub, is it Copenhagen? What is the, situation? I’m not really sure. I think in some way I was referring to the testing ground. But at the same time I don’t really think that makes so much sense because that was also a situation of like opening up. And only Randy and I are the only one who have been in the conversation with Ahab about what is that even. So for you please pass the more strings. not sure what you’re referencing to, but maybe it could be a question back. Like now when we are here and we are talking about this, what’s for you, perhaps also like individual but also as a group, is for you situating both the conversation but also perhaps the circumstances. If you have to voice the elements of your situation. what would they be? Maybe I’ll just take time to reflect on them. We never know. We have to doubt. But I’m also curious, because maybe we take for granted what we are refusing to. And I’m actually really curious about how you have seen this situation different from me. I think I probably a few… like a year a couple years ago when I was running the Sound Lab at the Art Academy I probably would have had a very different idea of situate because I was so involved in that institution so I was thinking about the institution as a that particular institution as like a really important one because it seems to represent or it does represent, you know, it has like this really extreme status that I find quite imbalanced and it’s very prestigious. And there’s also a lot of things that went on at that academy over my time there that were really difficult and, Yeah, there was a lot changing in Denmark over the past. Since I moved here, a lot of the Syrian immigration, the refugee situation was extreme and a lot of students were very concerned and involved in that. I’ve also noticed a lot of changes with the student body from going from total white Danish, parents of Danish, parents of Danish. background to now being like very many students from different backgrounds and I don’t know if how that has changed so quickly but but it has and they’re being like sexual assaults from the teachers onto students multiple ones that went on pretty much unpunished so there’s like what I think of listening from that perspective like I only read kind of got away from that and I found that it was also very much tied into the Danish sensibility which had not quite yet and there was also black lives matter you know so there was like so many things that have just happened in the past since I moved here that made that show that Denmark is a very there’s a lot changing in society a lot of things to consider, a lot of things to kind of cope with that I feel, you know, my interest in focus and listening kind of interacts with those things. So now I’m sort of more, I’m a little bit away from kind of thinking about Danish society as a whole constantly and how the institution is an expression of it, but… But I feel that’s very still important to me. So yeah, I don’t know why this just stuck in my head, but there was a big conversation around diversity. They were trying to educate people around diversity. But what word kept coming out is tolerance. “tolerance,” which really bothered me, instead of like “inclusion” or, you know, maybe some other word. It felt like people were just saying, because in Denmark it’s been very much about integration. You have to integrate. It’s not about, even though Danish culture will appropriate freely from all the other cultures and like misspell Mexico for a restaurant. Like, but yeah. yet at the same time, those people from other cultures have to totally assimilate, you know, totally adapt and we must tolerate people. So I think for me, like listening politically, like where I’m situated has to do with all of those things and like what language we use, like who is other and when do we hear otherness? It’s, I think there’s a very very subjective sense of when people are being loud. When my mother was growing up, it was the Swedes that were the loud ones. She would be like, there must be Swedish on the bus. Those were the others. And now it’s like a different other. So it’s still the Swedes. It’s only when they’re done. Yeah, so that’s, I think, for me, my context. Although– although I’m not that’s not what I’m walking around with all the time now. Now my helmet is a little bit more multi -layered. So yeah, that’s I think one of my concerns or some of my concerns. Do you feel that you like attune to those things because you’re also like not from catching on those things about about differences and about cultural there’s probably like a lot of reasons you know I mean yeah when you grow up in the United States in certain areas where there’s like a lot of different input from many different you know people from different times that they are there’s, yeah, like we’ve already had some of the debates and discussions and developed even our own, our own, now I’m Danish citizen too, but, that developed language around some things. And I think that’s a struggle for Danes need to develop our own language here around certain issues that doesn’t appropriate necessarily, but finds, you know, strong, struggles with how to describe their own experience with this word tolerance. Like, is that really the right word? Or is it something else that we should be using? And who’s being– some people might be very sensitive to the word tolerance. And so I don’t know. I mean, I am– I didn’t– grow up with a Danish mother and I did grow up sort of feeling like an other here when I would come here, but also feeling like I belonged. We were talking about that, how that affected my listening. So Danish was sort of familiar, but unfamiliar and belonging, you know, just very confusing. So, but I don’t know. I, I think just always, um, yeah, I have different, different things for my upbringing. I think maybe made me, In agreement all the time. So if one person is out of agreement in a situation, it’s very uncomfortable sometimes You know, so I mean I was something I learned really quickly because I was used to people like in the U .S. You’d be like, hey, you know, do you notice that maybe like that person may not feel comfortable with that word, you know, like it’s You know, it’s just you cannot go away from a meeting feeling like There was like someone was unhappy, you know and it’s like I think the scary thing is like this on like kindergarten levels you’re taught that but the police will get angry with you because you have different experience and the politicians will appear as the even the opposite things yeah and in the classroom when you have a discussion you have to end up in agreement yeah and if not everybody has like this bad feeling about it even that it doesn’t really belong in any of those situations I guess a lot such Korean others actually but but it’s such a strange thing in the minute it’s sort of like have that lens on what is going on and you’re like yeah it’s really everywhere and it really affects when you have a changing cultural landscape you know with difference yeah it makes it you know you have to be okay with that that not knowing or miscommunity you have to just sort of agree or like accept that I can’t understand your position yet or I can’t. You know that’s just in live with it. Interesting yes. Yeah cultural dynamics. I’m sure that plays a big part of course. I was just thinking though during the production meeting out there the place they mentioned we should do a pub up. thing is called Amy Hill. Yeah, exactly. They even named a physical place the agreement, or? Yeah, Amy Hill. And what is that place? Like, what is it? Office space community. Yeah. It’s a really office space community. Like, in the cultural sector? Or is it like a… It’s like different institutions can have an office there? Yeah. It’s nothing. I don’t think so. within the arts and culture? I’m not sure exactly who’s in there. The foundation who’s supporting this, they have an office there. A temporary office. Yeah, I didn’t even think about that. I’m really excited, I didn’t even think about it. I was curious to also create a space where you bring different ideas and mindsets. Yeah, and then you came together. it all. – And then you name it. This idea of naming again. – That is so funny. – Name it Enial. (laughing) That’s cool. – Reflective. – Yeah, it really is. – And most because I think most people would not really reflect on it. They would just appreciate it. It’s like, oh, this is a nice space to come there. It would be a good space to have my office then. Because it just fits so well into the whole. whole dynamic and it suggests this kind of is right yeah yeah yeah well then you have a lot of stress because people don’t feel comfortable with their own they can’t you Disagreements. So, even the sounding of the word “enigh” is so at ease and soft. Yeah, yeah. This is like the hard sounds. I mean, certainly one of the key questions for myself, and I think, well, probably everybody is really this sense of like, how do we listen to that which we’ve just heard. with, how do you bring your listening to that you know which I think of course is like calling out urgently today and it seems like yeah that’s a well that’s a question yeah is that how you’re feeling your your position position is right described best? Well, it’s not necessarily my position Specifically, but something that I’m definitely carrying with me and sharing with others, you know and sort of like in terms of like working through listening And what it can enable or how it can address contemporary current struggles that seems like a key question and like calling for a certain also reflection about methodology or like just ways of of uh doing setting the conditions for that um acknowledging that as a so it’s interesting yeah this in this context in this situation, how that would play out or be understood. I mean, my experience, I mean, not to like compare them, but maybe there is something about Scandinavian culture, but, you know, working in Norway and being involved in the kind of workplace environment where you had a lot of meetings, of course. And it was about institution. building, and so of course you could anticipate disagreements. Or at a certain moment, someone explaining it to me a little bit, like culturally speaking, why there was a certain kind of meeting culture, you know, where I was like constantly like, there’s like something missing here. No one’s really asking those questions, you know, or like, and then someone like explains me, and then it was interesting because they talked about trust, that like, somehow, um, that society is, is like held together by a feeling of trust, trust each other. Okay. And so if you were to disagree, it’s almost like you’re breaking that trust, you’re challenging that trust. Because you’re sort of like pointing out a problem, or you’re kind of, yeah, this sense that you are also potentially distrustful by disagreeing. I think that can be applied at that might be done. It’s funny how we then understand trust. Because what is the difference between trust and being submissive perhaps, or just accepting? Like what are the nuances between those things? Because I wouldn’t say that trust is the same as submissive into a structure and just agreeing to it. Trust should include also disagreement. It’s for me, I feel like the people I trust the most is also those who is often disagreeing with me. I know that they will tell me if they don’t agree and they will challenge me and they will demand more from me if I’m not, very few people are doing that. So it’s also very few people like 100 % trusting. But I think like the other definition definition or understanding of trust is also happening at the moment. But I’m just challenging that idea of what trust is. But do you think that it also has the type of trust you’re talking about has to do with institutional trust? Because you were in the context of an institution because I’m thinking about that like the both countries being social, somewhat social states, where you are to trust the government for what like here in Denmark, they’ll say the water’s clean, the water’s clean. clean you’ll say can I know what’s this you when we say it’s clean you need to just trust us yeah I mean about authority and sort of accepting somehow that that it is a trustworthy yeah environment or system right that you’ve got like they you’re a lot of aspects of your life or in the hands in ways that you would be made personal decisions about in let’s say the US, you know With all the examples now, but there’s the government that is involved in your life and a lot in a lot of different ways And also taking care of care of you in a certain way, you know They’ve made decisions across the whole board of everyone that everyone wants this when they get old They should look at this when they get old, you know, like this when they get you know When they’re this age they do this this everybody it’s a cookie cutter thing you know and I’m thinking that also has to do with the trust and I just don’t know if it has to how it comes out if that’s the kind that you’re talking about or if it was more like between the people or if institutionally it’s probably as you’re describing it because we were very much talking about the like as as participants in this institution yes and that culture of how do we have a healthy discussion about tough questions. So I was just recognizing that there was a certain quality going on that I couldn’t quite figure out. It’s so interesting. I was just a bit curious about when someone talked about trust. trust. I was like, but how would you then connect listening and trust? The other thing, because knowing that my trust is like a thing we explicitly talk about, I also think I’ve connected listening and trust. So now I’m curious if you also make a few connections there, or not, or maybe to think about it. People are the lack of the doubting, maybe, that prompts you to listen with those questions if you’re automatically trusting and you’re not going to. Yeah, yeah. But what I’m curious about all that, does doubt and trust have to be opposite? I don’t really think, I think you can trust in your doubt. yeah but I don’t know if it becomes philosophical as well but I often work with wondering and quite often we work with this concept of the unknown unknown and I have to develop this idea of trusting in that like finding comfort and care in that category to sort of like be like something you can stay with channels or other things I can trust in the unknown unknowns as a way to pose my questions with reason and with other people to listen to them in some way. So for me, like, down -ting and trust has a dynamic going on together. I wouldn’t say that. this personally but I would also be on ease with to doubt without trust and to trust without doubt. I want them to generate some complexity together. But those are philosophical ideas right and it’s hard to transfer our theories to our daily lives sometimes right. I’m not saying you don’t but I’m just saying like for me I might have an idea but then like you know like I’m a little bit with you and this disorientation theme and but then I might have a panic attack in certain situations I don’t know what’s going on So… Yeah, no, of course that’s uh, yeah Sometimes these things don’t match up Yeah, and maybe that’s also the case as well we’re describing like you could say that there is this general social cultural framework about cohesiveness or consensus but it doesn’t match, right? There’s like a friction when it comes to how people are experiencing life and the change in landscapes and so yeah this sort of relationships. are sometimes yeah but yeah of course trust and listening I mean just going back to yeah relationships and how I mean I think if we all feel that sense that if someone is listening to us then I think that automatically builds trust you know that you can like start to really trust best interests or is generally interested in who you are. So I think on that fundamental level, the two can support each other or are interlinked. They’ll not hit you if you disagree with them. Right, like, yeah. So showing interest or nurturing But I also recognize that the trust is a very cultural foundation thing, and also that I may take ideas of trust for granted in a day or two. context. I think other people of all experience have very good reasons to distrust the whole idea of trust. Like, for who benefits that. And I think even in a chronal context, I think people go out and ask for trust and then write it. But then at home, still market trust as a good thing. So, like, it’s definitely a comfort. thing. I had this feeling in the United States in my more recent visits, following all that has been going on in the recent years, of a sort of, like, almost like a feeling of people not trusting each other, like, you know, like, yeah, checking each other and being like, “What do you really want from me?” And like, so there’s a lot of… of you know so it is interesting to think about that as a dynamic that really affects society and you know encounters with others if you have a general feeling that I can generally trust in and definitely appreciating how that arises, that sense of distrust through experiences you know, that people are having, you know, violence. So, this is a larger community. Are you from the United States? I am, yes. Yes, from Los Angeles originally. But my family, they come from Pittsburgh. You do? I almost moved there as my after -college city. Yeah, I love it. Some of my favorite places. But you didn’t grow up there. I didn’t grow up there. My parents did. did. Oh, cool. And then they left after they were married. But we always go to Pittsburgh because all the families there. My parents were the only ones that loved me. But it’s a good place to go for art and sound art. Well, you know, it’s funny because I mean, I’m always there for family. You don’t go to like the the mattress factory? Occasionally. My favorite place. I do. It’s been a while now. I used to go to the Karni exhibition. So things like that, the occasional visit. Of course my orientation is very much on family. Yeah. So, um, I just, and, um, we, how are we? Yeah, hopefully you’re good. Time is this important, but I was thinking if, if we’ve also been sitting for a long time, so, so maybe it makes sense to also, um, leave the conversation. Just before I would like to invite you to to a little exercise to like also put all the words and the thinking somewhere else so it’s easier to believe it. Yeah. So I would like to invite you to perhaps write an invitation like a score or it can be very open but like in the framework of an invitation like maybe you have some feelings, ideas, questions that you would like someone to to. take further or stay with or just save like invitation to save it but but write down as invitation like as an exercise something that I have been working a little bit with here with the testing ground to like start up things in the framing of an invitation but just that like on your own hard like there’s no whatever format is it should be, but for that invitation, writing down something to leave this conversation with, doesn’t make sense. You go ahead. No, you first. Is this to be delivered, or is it just in my notebook for myself? Yeah, that’s the second question. It would be nice to also save, maybe for us to photograph and put on that little online archive. archive, but if you don’t want to or it’s also completely fine, but it was thought as a piece of paper. Yeah, but if you feel for them, I’d love to keep them as well. So inviting an invitation to someone else or someone other people yeah to do something or think of something other do stay with not do think with whatever really I think the invitation is such a generous way of placing things but just maybe a few minutes and then we can get to do it